We’re going to start this show at the end of the last show, where Andrew is talking about taking us into a segue to start talking now about conversion rate optimization and also how we’re going to go through my new design of my homepage on my website, Find The Edge. Peter is going to tear it apart, which should be good fun.
Now if you want to watch the video of this go to magneticconsultant.com because we recorded Peter’s screen so that you can see everything. Now over to Andrew.
Andrew: I think this is a great segue, that success story you shared there of how many more contacts that client received in just a couple of weeks of implementing his improved value proposition. This gets to conversion rate. This gets to actually turning visitors into prospects, and prospects into clients, which is the other big piece that you’ve been focusing on for a long time.
So I want to make sure to ask, what are some of your top tips for doing this? You can go to some of the details, but also broadly for getting more of your visitors and interested visitors to turn into good prospects, and your good prospects to turn into new customers.
P: Yeah. I’ll share a couple of high-level frameworks or ways of thinking. I think that’s the best I can do in a short amount of time, because I think we’ve been talking for quite a while now.
So the first thing is to consider, really think of what are the steps someone has to go through for them to go from a complete stranger to buying from you. This might sound like it’s a very simplistic, stupid and unnecessary question, but very few companies have actually thought it through. So really consider what are the steps, what is the systematic way for you to get someone from being a complete stranger, to noticing you, to wanting to opt into your email list, to watch a video, to learn what your products can do for them, to believe all the things they have to believe to counter all of their doubts and objections and eventually buy. What are all the steps?
When you have those steps, which basically means you have a good sales funnel, a very consistent and clear sales funnel, then there’s another way to look at it. Consider each step separately – okay, let’s take an example. When you go to someone’s website, you find a new website, everyone goes through 6 questions. They basically go through these in sequence, but you don’t even have to consider that.
Anyway, there are 6 questions. First one is, do I understand what this website is about? The second question is, do I think this is relevant for me? Next comes, do I think this is valuable information? Then,
do I want this information or do I want whatever they’re offering, which is surprisingly often separate from ‘do I think it’s valuable’?
People don’t necessarily want something that they think is valuable. You can go to an investment website and you might see, okay this information could be really valuable but I’m not interested enough in investing to actually want this information.
After those comes, do I trust the source? Do I trust the company or the person? And finally, is the risk, whatever they’re asking me to do, acceptable to me?
If you get people to answer ‘yes’ to all those questions, they move on to the next step. On an opt-in page, it would mean opting in. On a sales page, it would mean buying. So just consider those questions when you know the sequence or the sales funnel and just look at, am I getting people to feel that they want to take the next step. As I said, if they answer ‘yes’ to those 6 questions, they will convert.
Andrew: I love the way you broke it down there because we do go through all those questions in our mind, but it’s not conscious. Some of those, we go over very, very quickly. Some of those we don’t even think about consciously. They’re just right there in the subconscious from things as we scan the page or whatever else. But we do go through those steps, so if you really can think about that and break it down, that can help you craft what you need to do in your website and in your sales flow.
P: For instance, people take about 3 seconds to determine, do they stay on the website or leave based on, do I understand what it is about and is it relevant for me, and do I want it or does it seem valuable and do I want it? After those 3 seconds, which is really all you get, then they think, do I trust this?
It’s very, very quick and people don’t realize they do it, at least not usually. So you can’t expect them to go through the questions intellectually and wonder, does it seem valuable? They don’t question it. They just get the feeling of, is it valuable or not?
Andrew: That’s right, and it may seem very unfair. I’ve written so much great stuff on my website. They just took 5 minutes to read through my essay over here and they’d be convinced I’m the one for them. But you’re not going to do that and you’ve got to understand that it’s not about fairness.
So given that, what do you do? How do you go about structuring a good website for consultants or for anybody else, to make sure that you’re really answering the questions the right way for your best prospects? I think after you talk to this a little bit, this would be a great time to then switch over and then start to rip apart Kenny’s website.
P: Yeah. Well the first thing really is to know your sales funnel. It’s unfortunate how many people in business don’t even have a good sales funnel. They have a collection of tactics, like they might have a website or a blog within the website. They have a free e-book or something that people can get if they opt-in and they have a few email follow-ups, and they might write broadcast emails, and they do social media and they have a sales page and sales video, and they do webinars and all these things. But they don’t really connect to each other.
So what makes a website, for example, I think it’s a little bit of a narrow thing to talk about, effective is that it creates the result you want your website to create. In many cases, for consultants specifically and especially, it’s to get people to join your email list. In some cases, it can be to make them want to
contact you. But typically it’s much more effective to get people to your email list first because that’s a much lower – it doesn’t threaten them as much. It’s much easier to just join an email list than to contact someone for a strategy call or something like that.
Usually a good website would be one that directs people as quickly and as efficiently as possible to your email list. That means you set up an opt-in page which is the only thing people can do there, is opt in. They basically have to click the back button or find some navigation in your footer not to opt in. The only thing they can really do is to opt in.
Then you can build your entire website with the idea that I need people to get to this one page. If the pages do that, then that’s great, then your website works.
Then there’s the next stage of what do you do once people have opted in, and that doesn’t have to happen on the website. It can happen through email or it can happen in some other way. But the thing really is, consider what’s the goal for the website. What do you want the website to do?
A common misconception is that the website is there to generate traffic, and it’s not completely wrong. Sure, search engine optimization can work. You can get some people from Google and other sites to find you, but that’s quite inconsistent. It usually takes a lot of time. It can be expensive and it’s very unreliable in the long run, compared to other ways of thinking of how do you get people to your website?
Website goals shouldn’t usually be to generate visitors but rather to convert visitors into subscribers or convert them into people who are on your email list.
Andrew: I think that’s a wonderful question everybody should ask of their website: what do I need to do, because so many companies just naturally think that the goal of their website is to explain, in great detail, everything about their company. That doesn’t help you. Some of the information obviously helps, but that doesn’t get to the goal that you’re trying to achieve, of getting people to sign up to your email lists, to contact you, to watch a video, whatever it is you want them to do.
That’s a wonderful point we all need to keep in mind, start from asking, what do we need this tool, whatever it is, website or anything else, to do for us in our sales funnel? I love that way of thinking about it.
P: Yeah. As you said, it’s very natural for a lot of us to build a website with the idea that it’s an informational thing. We tell people stuff about us on the website or we tell stuff about our products on the website and both are okay, but usually, not always, and especially for consultants and coaches and the like, it’s much more effective to use your website to primarily get people to your email list, and then consider all the other stuff. That’s the goal. If you can do that well, great.
Andrew: Yeah. Kenny, do you have any questions at this point or shall we shift gears and go take a look at your website?
Kenny: Let’s go and take a look at the website. I’ve made you a presenter there, so if you could just accept that, Peter.
P: I should be showing – can you see it now?
Kenny: Yes, we can. Okay, great. So do you want me to very quickly talk you through this and then you can comment on that?
Kenny: Okay, great. So as you can see there, that’s the new homepage. Now generally, most of the people who come to my website will come to adverts, to landing pages or to my blog and podcast. They’re set up to convert people into different lead magnets for different blog posts or podcasts, landing pages.
On the homepage, the main thing I want people to do is what you said before, is to sign up for the free presentation.
P: Okay. You actually started to answer the first question that you should always answer before considering a website. Where do people come from and what are they looking for? So just to give you an idea of what I mean, if people let’s say are coming to your blog page through social media links that are just sharing an interesting piece of content, they are very differently motivated than if they find your website from an advertisement you’ve made where you directly talk about a service, for example.
The motivation on the source is very different and it makes a massive difference in what your website should be like and what’s the message you should give them, because they are looking for different things. They want different things in that specific moment when they come to those sites.
So looking at the homepage, and I think we can just focus on the homepage, there are two ways people come here. Usually – let me know if I’m incorrect on your website – people find a homepage either through looking for specifically your business or something very integrally about your business. Someone might look for, let’s say, an MIT presentation because that’s in your headline. Maybe they would find your website like that and come straight to the homepage.
The alternative way to come to the homepage would likely be that they first landed on another page. They don’t really find what they want there and they are like, okay let’s see what else I can find. I’m intrigued enough to go look for something else. Then they click the homepage button or your logo, or something that leads them here. Does that sound about right in your case?
Kenny: That definitely sounds right. Most of the time, they’ll come to my website because they’ve landed on another landing page and they generally want to have a look – they come to my homepage because they want to find out a little bit more about me, I think.
P: Yeah. So if we look at the page now, people see immediately, it looks more like a landing page in itself, not something people should see once they have determined that the landing page didn’t give them enough to opt in.
There are 6 questions. Do I understand what this website is about? I think this headline kind of answers it. It’s currently about generating high quality clients. That’s apparently what it is about and I’m guessing that’s correct.
Kenny: Yes, that’s right.
P: So the second question is, is this relevant for me? Kind of, yes, but there are thousands of websites that provide or promise to tell people how to get clients. It starts to be a little bit iffy here. Is it really relevant for me because the conversation in someone’s mind might very well be, ‘Well, I’ve seen this stuff a lot and it hasn’t really been relevant for me because the results haven’t really been there.’ So this might not really give people a sense that this is relevant.
If you told, for example, that this is meant for starting consultants or if you said that this is meant for, let’s say, health professional consultants or if you were more specific about who this is meant for, and/or, if you told what specific problem they’re having at the moment, which is kind of self- explanatory, they don’t have enough high-quality clients, but even though it’s implied, it’s not really specific.
So if you changed it to just be more specific about whom it’s meant for or why it’s meant for them, like what makes this specifically for the people who are looking at the website, then it would feel a lot more relevant. What do you think?
Kenny: Yeah. I think on the ‘who it’s for’, it’s quite difficult because my clients span a mass of different areas from B2B businesses to coaches, consultants, trainers, authors. I can’t really focus in that area too much.
P: Then the other way to do it is – first of all, if you have authors, they probably don’t think of their customers as clients. It’s just probably not the word they use. That’s my experience, that unless they are service professionals, people rarely talk about clients but rather customers. So that might already be irrelevant for them.
P: So the point is, if you have a widely varying customer base, first of all, consider if you would like to make it more specific because that might make your marketing a lot easier to do and a lot more effective as we talked previously. A specific target customer makes things a lot easier.
But the second thing is, I assume you are at least focused on specific questions or specific problems or specific outcomes, and if not any of those, then at least a specific method or methodology or process or way of thinking that applies to all your customers.
Kenny: The big thing that comes out for my clients and my prospects is they have bad clients. They have low-quality clients and they don’t charge enough, and they work too hard. So before when you were saying the 3 things, I was thinking about those 3 things.
P: Yeah. That starts to sounds like a lot better headline. It starts to sound like – let’s say, if I’m the visitor and you tell me that you help people who have low-quality clients, you help people who can’t seem to charge enough to actually make what they want, and they still have to work really, really hard, much more than they would like to, that starts to be much more relevant. It’s still very understandable what this is about, but it also feels more relevant, assuming I have those issues and I highly relate to those specific words that you used.
Kenny: With your headline, would you focus on the pain like that or would you focus on the outcome, the benefits?
P: Ideally both, but just with the headline, you usually have to focus on just one and in most cases, people are more motivated to act because of the pain, but there are some exceptions. There are some cases where people are more motivated to act towards a goal than to run away from an issue. So it’s about your target customers, but usually people run harder away from pain than towards pleasure or towards a goal.
The headline might be best to have it about the pains. But you can have the call-to-action button or something like that as a supportive thing to talk about the goals and say that okay, click here to get high- quality clients, or click here to do something else, talk about the goal there.
Kenny: Yeah, makes sense.
P: This is still kind of like – since the people who are coming to the page have already seen a landing page, the landing page should’ve already given them an idea of what this site is about, that it’s relevant because if they don’t think it’s relevant, they wouldn’t have come to your homepage. They would’ve left. So they think it’s relevant.
They also think it seems valuable and that they kind of want it. So what they probably are looking for when they come to your homepage is actually, do I trust you? This all sounds great, but do I actually think that you can do this, because a lot of people promise similar things. I like the part in the headline that says, ‘MIT presentation’ because it’s recognizable. It sounds like, ‘Okay this guy must know what he’s talking about’.
But it’s not that much. It’s still kind of leaves me with questions of, so how much do you know? What do you really know about what separates you from other people who do similar things? It’s a big vague. So I would try to change the headline and overall, the homepage, to be more about just what makes you, you, why should I or your target customer hire you? Why should I trust you? What will I get when I hire you or when I engage on your website in some way?
So just more about the benefits and outcomes that you provide, and the way you do it. One of the best ways to prove that you can provide some benefits is to make people understand how you do it. If they understand how you do something, then they probably believe that you can do it because they have to understand, okay, this is how it’s going to work. That’s usually enough for them to believe that it actually will go that way.
Kenny: Yeah, okay. How would you work that into a lead magnet? So would you add more detail – so you’d put the headline and possibly some bullet points, and then present the lead magnet?
P: The lead magnets, freebie or whatever you want to call it should be part of a sales funnel. Again, it’s not just an individual piece of marketing, but rather it should fit and actually work together with the rest of the pieces in your funnel. I see very often people just build freebies or giveaways or lead magnets that aren’t just interesting information, but they don’t really fit into the rest of the puzzle.
So that’s the first thing, just really consider what’s the goal for the freebie or the lead magnet? In many cases, many people think that the goal is just to make people want to opt in, just provide them
something that is good enough incentive for them to opt in. Of course, that’s one goal, you have to get people to opt in.
But in addition to that, a big goal usually or actually in all cases, should be to actively make people want to hire you. So that’s another thing. If you make the freebie or lead magnet, talk about the benefits, communicate the value proposition that you already have, the things that are most likely to make people want to buy from you, and use the lead magnet to make people believe that you can actually provide those things. Then that’s usually how it works best.
In your case, an example that I just used, I did a course on sales funnels. I called it “Painlessly Simple Funnel: A sales funnel that anyone can actually build”. It’s simplistic enough for anyone to build and it’s still very effective. I built a freebie or a lead magnet that goes through the basic structure of it. So if someone’s interested in a clear, simple sales funnel structure, then the freebie is certainly something they want. It will tell you how it works.
But it also, while explaining why it works and how it works, it also is talking about the things that are most likely to make people want to buy a course that actually goes through all the details every step of the way.
I don’t know, maybe the example kind of gives an idea of how the freebie should fit into the bigger picture of it.
Kenny: Yeah, absolutely. The funnel for me, we’ve got funnels in there that work really, really well. We’re going to be testing new funnels because we’ve got quite a few different lead magnets now. And it’s so amazing, isn’t it, when you’re doing this yourself, you can’t see the wood through the trees. It just sometimes takes either a good friend or hire a mentor or coach, whatever, to just be that person to look and to see things that you are not seeing because you’re involved in it. You’re in the bubble.
P: Yeah. I think that still about half of my clients are marketing professionals, people who do marketing as a living, which are consultants. It’s very, very difficult to see things like this yourself, especially if messaging specifically isn’t your expertise. So I totally understand, you’re actually doing a very good job compared to the 99% of websites that I see.
You instantly give them a reason to believe you. ‘MIT presentation’, that’s enough to give me a sense of, okay this isn’t just some dude who’s talking about marketing. This is someone who knows it well enough, who has been doing it long enough and can talk about it in a high enough level to be able to do a presentation at MIT. That’s a lot already.
It’s a good promise to say ‘5 proven ways to consistently generate high-quality clients’. That’s a good benefit. But the problems that I’m trying to nitpick, just to make this interesting, it’s a little vague. And that’s usually the problem people run into. That it’s impossible and very difficult to see that what’s obvious to you as the person who’s providing the thing is not obvious to everyone else because they don’t know what you’re providing.
You have to tell them enough to actually make them understand it, and it takes a lot more than what many people seem to think.
It can be a good idea, but again, let’s look at what’s the goal for the website. What would you say? What is the goal for this website? What is the goal for the homepage?
Kenny: It is to convey trust.
P: Then the content can be very good because if people find the piece of content that they’re interested in and read it and look through it, and watch it, and they think that okay, now I can trust you, then mission accomplished, you built trust.
But, and there’s a big ‘but’ here, I would say that the main goal for every page on your website should be to get people on your email list, unless the goal is to get people to buy something directly or to contact you directly. So if that’s the goal, if that would be the goal, then sharing directly a lot of content can be quite distracting because then people have way, way more options than just clicking somewhere to join your email list.
Kenny: Yeah and they’ll find your content anyway, won’t they, because I’ll be going out on social sites where we’re going to be publishing it to our list every time it goes out anyway.
P: Then again, you can also think of it as – many people who find this homepage, and we’re really talking about your homepage, are people who have already landed to a landing page or an opt-in page or some sort, or a piece of blog content. So if they come to the homepage, they’re looking for something else that hopefully will then convince them to join your email list.
So offering them more blog content can work but there’s probably more effective ways to directly tell them the things they now need to know for them to feel comfortable to join.
P: So it would likely be more about how do you work, who do you work with, what do you help them achieve, what are the problems you solve, and what are really the benefits of this presentation you’re offering or if you’re offering something else? Generating high quality clients is a feature. It’s not a benefit. The benefit is having fun with the clients, making more money or actually even making more money is the feature.
I know it starts easily for us, especially in the marketing industry because we see these same things promised so often. It can start to sound a bit wishy-washy. Everyone promises more free time when traveling and all these things. So you need to figure out what are the benefits your target customers want most and then talk about those.
Kenny: Yeah. You are right. There’s just so many of these sites that promise freedom don’t they? Freedom seems to be the big keyword that people use.
P: Then again, freedom is what everyone is after with practically everything they do on some level and freedom comes in many different forms. But that’s, I think, a different discussion.
Andrew: Yeah. So maybe the question becomes then, are you giving enough information right here to convince a good prospect to help them see all the way to that freedom or is that too big of a leap? Is there something a little closer you can talk about first?
P: It can be too big of a leap. I wouldn’t make a headline of ‘Gain freedom’. That’s way too vague. Talking about freedom is usually kind of on the edge of, is it too vague? If someone is specifically looking for freedom, then promising them freedom is great. But I think that is limited to inmates. They’re looking for freedom. Other people are looking for things that are less vague.
Andrew: Some of Kenny’s clients, but in fact…
Kenny: I was thinking of having a picture of me on the beach drinking a piña colada.
P: Yeah. That can work because then you’re implying the lifestyle that you help people get. If they’re looking for that, if your target customers are clients really are imagining and hoping that they can live on the beach somewhere, on an exotic island, then showing that you’ve done it is great.
Otherwise, it’s a bit on the edge of depending on how educated, how commonplace people find that thing, it can start to look just like bragging or it doesn’t convey trust to many people. So it’s really about your target customers and understanding what are the exact things that they’re looking for and what are the ways they described those things. If you can match the way people describe what they want, then they will almost automatically believe that you can provide those things for them.
So if for example, they would say that on a daily basis, they think to themselves and tell to their friends that I want to move to an exotic island and work 3 hours a day and make a million dollars a year, then if you put a picture of yourself on the beach of an exotic island, tell them that here’s how to work 3 hours a day and make a million bucks a year. Then that would be exactly what they would click through. Okay, this is perfect, where do I sign up?
But it’s really about going through the process of creating your value proposition so you know their exact ideas and the way to describe those ideas so that your target customers are most likely to want to buy or sign up, in this case.
Kenny: Yeah, to see over here in the UK, it’s very gray so it wouldn’t be a very good picture, I don’t think. It’s a little bit too cold. That’s been great.
Andrew: That’s what Photoshop is for, Kenny.
Kenny: Exactly. I think I’ll put a six-pack on me, as well. Great. I think you’ve given me some great feedback there. You’ve given so much value today. I think we all have to split it into a couple of shows.
P: Just very quickly, if they’re interested in the process for creating the value proposition, then that’s a bit more complicated. If you want to check how good your ideas are, and how good building blocks they could be for a value proposition, your marketing message, I have a very quick and simple exercise for it that you can get at petersandeen.com/value.
A lot of people have used it and a lot of even very experienced business owners have said that it has really given them clarity on what to focus on. So hopefully it helps people and hopefully, it’s going to help you too.
Kenny: Did you see what happened there, Andrew, he actually thought that we were going to skip to the end of the show without giving him any credits there?
Andrew: Yeah. How did he let us get away with that?
P: I do marketing for a living. Do you think I wouldn’t plug it in there somehow?
Kenny: We were just building up. There was a drum roll. We were going to do a big drum roll for you to build up your lead magnet there, but you beat us to it.
Andrew: Yeah, so that’s perfect. I’ll also put that up on the podcast page, petersandeen.com/value so people can easily find it. That’s a great lead-in, Peter.
Kenny, also thank you, because it’s not easy to open up your own stuff for critique. As you guys were talking about before, we’re too close to our own websites, our own creations. We need a third eye to look at them, but at the same time, they’re our babies and we pour our heart and soul into them, and it can be very hard to listen to anyone criticize them. But Peter did so well, and Kenny, you took it very well. Hopefully you’ve got some good ideas that can make it even better as you roll it out, so great job on both of you there.
Peter, thank you so much for spending all this time with us today. We do have your lead magnets to refer people too. And let us also ask, before I let you go, who would you refer to come onto our show next? Who do you think would be good for us to interview for our audience?
P: Contact Danny Iny, but he’s a really, really great guy. He runs a website called Fire Pole Marketing. I’ve worked with him several times. I’ve met him. He’s just a really great guy, has made phenomenal progress with his business. I think in just 3 or 4 years or so, he has turned from just not having a business to making multiple 7-figures and having a team of 25 people. He’s someone I think you should interview.
Andrew: Fantastic. We will reach out to him. Thank you very much for that.
Alright, so thank you again Peter Sandeen from petersandeen.com. Next show, Kenny, this will be the show that we’re planning on for last week, which is how to follow up with prospects without chasing them. We have a lot to talk about there.